Tarot Collectors Forum Home 
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

Bohemian Gothic
 Moderated by: tarotcol
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 05:15 am
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
This deck started shipping out from Prague about 3 weeks ago. Does anyone have it yet? What are your thoughts/feelings about it? Anyone have the silver edition?

I got mine last week, the Silver edition, I ordered the standard from them a couple weeks ago.

It's stunning, haunting and magnificent in it's ambience and mood. I think the silver is just amazingly applied! You're mesmerized by the shifting colours in different lights. When you look at them in direct sunlight it takes your breath away! In darker light some of them look like negatives. Just astounding.

It looks like the image is moving, the candles/lanterns are actually lit. 3-D effect.

I really am looking forward to the standard, I hear the colours are more saturated and vibrant, one can see more detail. The Silver is a ghostly masterpiece.

Love to hear others takes on this one! :)

Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 05:16 am by 6 Haunted Days

Back To Top

 Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 05:17 am
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
No one here has this deck yet or any thoughts? Strange indeed.

Back To Top

 Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 06:51 am
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
Nevermind. No one gives a shit anyways.

Last edited on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 06:53 am by 6 Haunted Days

Back To Top

 Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 07:30 pm
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
Yes I have it, but I have already said all I want to say about it in threads I know you have already read.... I didn't see the point saying things to you that I have already said...! :D

And I said more to you personally by PM - so I will repeat here what I said in a PM to you, for the benefit of others who of course didn't see THAT bit - I really do NOT like the book......... ! I find it a bit patronising. Then again - I don't have to read it and I usually don't read the books for ages anyway. I am still thinking about the cards.

Back To Top

 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 05:30 am
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: Yes I have it, but I have already said all I want to say about it in threads I know you have already read.... I didn't see the point saying things to you that I have already said...! :D

And I said more to you personally by PM - so I will repeat here what I said in a PM to you, for the benefit of others who of course didn't see THAT bit - I really do NOT like the book......... ! I find it a bit patronising. Then again - I don't have to read it and I usually don't read the books for ages anyway. I am still thinking about the cards.

Yea I know quite a bit of your thoughts on the book, and agree with them! I was just curious about what others who don't post on the other forum thought about the Silver, standard or the book. But not much interest!

Back To Top

 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 10:56 am
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
You know - in the oddest way - I think one thing that has struck me about it (so hit me) is that it isn't a collector's deck. Does that make sense ? (BTW - so you know, someone gave me the Silver, so I do now have both - but I have barely opened it yet, as we have loud and demanding company !!)

The Baroque Bohemian Cats is a collector's deck; so is the Prague; I am not sure about the Fairytale; nor about the Vic Rom. I don't know quite how to express this, but can you see what I'm getting at ? And this forum is far more collector oriented than AT - I'm not even sure that ADAM has it !!!! and on AT, of course the hype has coloured any serious discussion. There is one person there I e-mail with regularly about all sorts who has a lot to say about it........ check the threads and try a PM....

Back To Top

 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 06:15 pm
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
AdamMcLean
Member


Joined: Wed Sep 5th, 2007
Location: Glasgow, United Kingdom
Posts: 1249
Status: 
Offline
6 Haunted Days wrote:
It's stunning, haunting and magnificent in it's ambience and mood. I think the silver is just amazingly applied! You're mesmerized by the shifting colours in different lights. When you look at them in direct sunlight it takes your breath away! In darker light some of them look like negatives. Just astounding.
It looks like the image is moving, the candles/lanterns are actually lit. 3-D effect.



Yes I agree, the effect of the light shifting is quite magnificient and in keeping with the subject theme of the deck. The smoke rising from the Magician's table is rather well done. Although smoke does not quite behave like that in reality, in the imaginative world of this deck it produces a rather nice effect. The Magician is shown in sharp detail in contrasty  light, and he is placed in the gloomy interior of  the black and silver gothic architecture, but this strangely luminous and out of focus pillar of smoke rises up  and diffuses, contrasting with these two components of the image. Alex and Karen seem to play with these components throughout the deck - sharp foreground figures often with some applied colour, diffuse out-of-focus images, and the brooding gothic backgrounds. They also use quite a small pallette of colours, such as the reds and blues, with some small excursions into certain greens and purples. The sky of the Eight of Wands is quite delightful with its reds and blues shimmering in the gloom.

When I first glanced at these some weeks ago, I was a bit put out by the rather too coarse half-tone screen the printer had used. I am perhaps too much of  a perfectionist when it comes to printing, but strangely, having looked at the cards in more detail, I have entirely lost sight of this. Perhaps it even contributes to the effect of shifting light that occurs when you tip the cards to and fro away  from your line of sight. The silver ink appears to be transparent and applied on top thus creating interference patterns with the dots of the half-toned underlying colours. I like looking at this deck in the light of  a strong lamp.

I must also get the standard deck as it will, no doubt, look quite different.

 

Last edited on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 06:18 pm by AdamMcLean

Back To Top

 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 08:48 pm
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
They do indeed look very different. Someone said the silver is OTT and detracts from the cards. I am still thinking about this, as I have yet to decide what I think of the cards........... It DOES seem to make them darker (in hue...) and harder to see.... I have on occasion had to resort to the book to see the details of images in the regular ones...

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:12 am
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
Hi Adam, No, there is no coarse "half tone screen" - they are offset, not screen printed. Can you explain more what you mean please, perhaps I misunderstand?

Anyway, not sure I want to post more on this here but I just wanted to clarify that. The resolution we use for the offset is in fact very high.

Edited to add. I just asked Alex, he is laughing at me :). It's 175 lpi - about the highest one could use for a project like this. There are some real issues about printing higher than this on cardstock, 200 lpi is, for example, normally usually only used for photographic art books on certain papers.  So I'm not sure what you're seeing (the base photographs are old and some tend to have faded, perhaps that's the effect you see?) You're of course welcome to pm me if you'd like to chat about the printing side - Alex is more the printing expert.

Is it a collector's deck? Time will tell I suppose. But it was made for rather different reasons - I'd like to see it used, not just stacked on a shelf. By the way it'll be featured in two upcoming print magazines this spring so if anyone is interested there will be some more information about the process in one of those articles I think - all depending on how it's edited. I have a feeling that process is a boring topic for many people though so I won't be surprised if the journalist does cut some of what we've written. Let's hope at least a bit survives.

Sorry you don't like the book Gregory, but please bear in mind it has to address both absolute beginners - a Gothic deck tends to attract a lot of purchasers interested in Gothic style but who are not familiar with tarot - and much more experienced people. Fortunately it seems generally to have been quite well-liked so I won't defend it further. We do our best! :)

 

Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:24 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:16 am
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
Oh, by the way, hello! I mainly read here - I was interested in Debra's topic but didn't really work up the motivation to post so far. I probably won't post much to be honest, but nice to see this forum getting going.

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:43 am
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
AdamMcLean
Member


Joined: Wed Sep 5th, 2007
Location: Glasgow, United Kingdom
Posts: 1249
Status: 
Offline
BabaStudio wrote:  there is no coarse "half tone screen" - they are offset, not screen printed. Can you explain more what you mean please, perhaps I misunderstand?



Offset lithography can actually only print solid colour.  Gradations of tones are created by the use of a half tone screen. This breaks down the gradation of tones and represents them as a mesh of different sized dots.  This is done for the four colours and the nets of dots or half tone screens are printed in series on top of each other, in fact these screens are placed at different angles so that they do not overlap one another or produce moire effects.  I think the printer for your Bohemian Gothic has used a rather coarser half tone screen than usual, but I think it works well and indeed contributes to the effects of shifting light that  makes the deck so interesting. The printer probably chose this because they were aware that they were overprinting this with the silver and did not want to flatten the contrast too much by piling on too much ink.

I have good eyesight and I always see the dots in printed imagery !  A printer colleague of mine used to have to hide his annoyance when I told him that I could see the dots on his printing. Modern colour laser printing  uses "dithering" rather than a fixed mesh of dots, and the same is true for giclee printing. The dots, though still there, are more muddled togetther so it is difficult to see them. I think I rather annoyed that printer when I said I could still see the dithered dots in a print he made for me. 

I am also one of those rather annoying people in art galleries, as I like to get close up to the painting to see the brushstrokes and the way the image was formed. I was once nearly thown out of the National Gallery of Scotland for getting too close to a painting !  And I rather worried the guards in the National Gallery in London, a few years ago, when I was trying to view a painting from different angles up close as I wanted to see the underpainted structure.  At least I can view my tarot cards up close.

 

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:50 am
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
AdamMcLean wrote: BabaStudio wrote:  there is no coarse "half tone screen" - they are offset, not screen printed. Can you explain more what you mean please, perhaps I misunderstand?



Offset lithography can actually only print solid colour.  Gradations of tones are created by the use of a half tone screen.  I think the printer for your Bohemian Gothic has used a rather coarser half tone screen than usual,
 

Hi Adam. Thanks - as I say, I am not the print expert. (I maybe ought to say that we don't use that term "half tone screen" for offset ourselves - it may be a matter of the terminology here being different). The resolution we use is around 175 lpi which is - as a comparison - a little higher than the LS decks. So no, if anything the resolution is higher than usual, not lower. Basically we go as high as we dare on cardstock - there comes a point, as you I'm sure know, where the stock won't take higher resolutions which are only suitable for papers designed for art books.

Anyway, it gave the effect we were looking for which was the main thing. Do chat to Alex direct about this if you'd like to - talking to me about print is a bit like talking to a fish about mountains (but Alex does  not post on forums so you get me instead!)

Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:57 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:58 am
  PMQuoteReply
13th Post
AdamMcLean
Member


Joined: Wed Sep 5th, 2007
Location: Glasgow, United Kingdom
Posts: 1249
Status: 
Offline
Karen,

Have you ever thought of using  the graphic work of Max Klinger as material for a deck? He died in 1920 so his images are out of copyright.

 

Attachment: klinger1.jpg (Downloaded 93 times)

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 11:24 am
  PMQuoteReply
14th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
There are fundamental issues in using the work of any established artist as the main theme of a deck:

- Not all the images you need will be available - very few artists produced, for example, a really appropriate image for The Hanged Man.

- This then leads to an awkward decision - you either put in not-very-appropriate-but-maybe-it'll-do images, OR you take the artist's work to pieces and recompose it substantially (we do this a lot, but mainly where the base image is less well-known or at least not identified in the deck with that artist - if you see what I mean) OR, you make new images in the appropriate style - which LS did for example in the Klimt.
None of these works perfectly - all have drawbacks.

I won't talk endlessly on this - it's worthy of a whole article - but that's the basic issue in a nutshell. It's the reason why "named" artist's decks are so rarely successful (particularly over 78 cards) in terms of being usable tarots. I actually think LS did a pretty good job on the Klimt, but for purists, well a lot of the images are NOT by Klimt, they are just roughly in the style of Klimt. We prefer to take fairly anonymous images (in most cases, sometimes we do work with much more familiar pictures) where the final viewer won't be offended/disturbed/off-put by seeing them recomposed. For instance, I'm not sure I'd want to recompose some of the more famous pre-Raph images - especially when the original painting relies heavily on composition.

We are talking to a couple of very much alive artists here about making decks from a combination of their existing work and some new work - which they would produce specially. But that has its own issues. When an artist is very well-known (as both people we are talking to are) and selling their paintings for upwards of $20,000, they just don't have a whole lot of motivation to put time into producing even a few cards for a deck, even if they like the basic idea.

(this seems a bit off-thread, maybe it would be better moved?)



 


Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 11:35 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 11:45 am
  PMQuoteReply
15th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
By the way, this is a great image Adam, but another issue in using these historical artists is finding the images. If you pinch them off the web (which many do) that usually does break copyright - plus the resolutions tend to be laughable for print. There are some copyright-free dvds available for some artists, but again, the resolution is often too poor (we like to work at a very minimum of 300 - but often nearer 450 to get a decent final effect). Image libraries are possible, but they are often too expensive to use for a deck as maybe upwards of 300 images would be needed in order to get 78 cards (Alex says more like 700-800 but I am more optimistic!)

For the VR we had to spend two years gathering material. We tried only to use very good quality originals which meant using "portfolio" books that are now expensive. I'm not saying which series we used - it was one particular "by subscription" set that continued for several decades and was targeted at art collectors - as they are so scarce and we still snap up every one that appears at an affordable price :)

In all I think we spent over $2000 just for the books for the VR, which was fine, but might not be for a very small-run deck. For the BG it was quicker and less expensive - about six months in time to find the photos - because we had the great good fortune to be allowed the free run of the cabinet collection of a friend here (see the book acknowledgements) and also to coincide with the point at which an elderly collector decided to auction off his amazing postcards - many of which we promptly bought.

So, all in all if you want to do a deck based on a particular artist, unless someone somewhere happens to have an original portfolio of their work (at good quality - many 19th century books suffered from poor printing), there is a real problem.

It's a shame, but I think for all these reasons it's very unlikely we'd launch into doing this kind of deck. Thanks for the suggestion though, that's appreciated.

Last edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 07:10 pm by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 08:52 pm
  PMQuoteReply
16th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
Hi Karen ! Don't WORRY about my not liking the book ! I generally don't read them a whole lot; I did want to respond in this thread as the thread starter felt neglected ! but as you say - you cannot please everyone; it would be a boring world if you could - and I was NOT complaining as such. Don't take my not liking something as personal. You know you two were also responsible for my bestest deck of all !!! I would hate to feel I couldn't say what I thought for fear of offending you. And you would hate me not to feel able say what I think for that reason, too - I hope !

I'm not wild about Michelangelo's David either. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the horrible thing ! :f

Back To Top

 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 09:12 pm
  PMQuoteReply
17th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: Hi Karen ! Don't WORRY about my not liking the book ! I generally don't read them a whole lot; I did want to respond in this thread as the thread starter felt neglected ! but as you say - you cannot please everyone; it would be a boring world if you could - and I was NOT complaining as such. Don't take my not liking something as personal. You know you two were also responsible for my bestest deck of all !!! I would hate to feel I couldn't say what I thought for fear of offending you. And you would hate me not to feel able say what I think for that reason, too - I hope !

I'm not wild about Michelangelo's David either. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the horrible thing ! :f

No, no, I didn't take it as personal - and of course say whatever you want to, that's what forums are for. I've put out enough books now to know that what one person will rave about another will hate. I genuinely meant I was sorry that YOU don't like it. But I don't feel you have to or ought to. It was a hard book to write because I want people to approach the cards in a rather different way from the way they might go about reading with a "non-dark" (is that grammatical?) deck.  But the way I expressed that may not gel with everyone. Anyway, our editor is my hardest critic so I'm well used to getting some blunt advice (like me he's a Belfast native :) ).

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 02:49 am
  PMQuoteReply
18th Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: You know - in the oddest way - I think one thing that has struck me about it (so hit me) is that it isn't a collector's deck. Does that make sense ? (BTW - so you know, someone gave me the Silver, so I do now have both - but I have barely opened it yet, as we have loud and demanding company !!)

The Baroque Bohemian Cats is a collector's deck; so is the Prague; I am not sure about the Fairytale; nor about the Vic Rom. I don't know quite how to express this, but can you see what I'm getting at ? And this forum is far more collector oriented than AT - I'm not even sure that ADAM has it !!!! and on AT, of course the hype has coloured any serious discussion. There is one person there I e-mail with regularly about all sorts who has a lot to say about it........ check the threads and try a PM....

I'm curious. Why are the BBC and Prague considered collector decks, but the BG or their others isn't? What am I missing? I would think the Silver would be at least, the silver ink overlay is one of a kind.

Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 02:50 am by 6 Haunted Days

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 10:30 am
  PMQuoteReply
19th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
6 Haunted Days wrotI'm curious. Why are the BBC and Prague considered collector decks, but the BG or their others isn't? What am I missing? I would think the Silver would be at least, the silver ink overlay is one of a kind.
When you say is considered - the only person who said that was ME. I did say "do you see what I mean." I do know what I mean - but I don't know how to say it.......... One of a kind is not the only criterion, though - or not for me, anyway. I suppose in one way - decks that are wildly popular and there is loads of - FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, KAREN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no undertones....) hype about, somehow - make me uncomfortable with seeing them as collectors' decks.....

Well, let's see - there are books in this world which are absolutely brilliant, but which aren't collectors' items either. The BBC is - I'd say - because it was brought out almost tentatively, and was very much the first of its kind - indeed, for all the other cat decks around, it is still in a genre of its own. The Prague even more so. There are other Gothic decks, though. This may or may not be the best - but it is still not unique in the way the BBC is.

BTW - I agree with what you (6) said elsewhere about the "physical" darkness of the cards - I do find I have to look at the book to see the details, and that I DO regret. It slows down reading with them, too.............

Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 10:32 am by gregory

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 10:47 am
  PMQuoteReply
20th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: The BBC is - I'd say - because it was brought out almost tentatively, and was very much the first of its kind - indeed, for all the other cat decks around, it is still in a genre of its own.
Ah, actually Gregory, there were I think as many posts about the BBC when it came out - but it predates your time on AT.

I don't have control over people starting threads on our decks (no, I am not some global "puppet-master" of the tarot forums :) ) and nor do I seek it. I think everyone is free to talk about whatever decks they want to.

Like Riccardo, Ciro and quite a few others, one does wonder if it's worth it to post at all - or even to do decks at all when making films, books, products and a heap of other things seems to be so much less emotive in terms of chatting about them.

If "tentative" publication is now the criterion for a deck being collectible I am bewildered. I think I'll get back to me fillum and me bag designs!

"Hype" is such an ugly word. Here is part of its dictionary definition:
2. to create interest in by flamboyant or dramatic methods; promote or publicize showily: a promoter who knows how to hype a prizefight. 3. to intensify (advertising, promotion, or publicity) by ingenious or questionable claims, methods, etc. (usually fol. by up). 4. to trick; gull.
–noun 5. exaggerated publicity; hoopla. 6. an ingenious or questionable claim, method, etc., used in advertising, promotion, or publicity to intensify the effect. 7. a swindle, deception, or trick.

I honestly am fed up with words like that being flung around when I am doing something I love with someone I love.

Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:12 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:17 am
  PMQuoteReply
21st Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
What can one do - I did SAY I said "hype for want of a better word, please don't get upset !" I don't know another word for what I mean - but when a deck is so eagerly expected and trailed and - not advertised but talked up - NOT by you - the waiting almost takes on a life of its own, and inevitably makes a difference to how the deck feels when you get it - you have such expectations and it then MATTERS so much if it lives up to them enough and so forth...

But I still felt (I was actually around but very quiet (I lurked !) during the BB's birth !) that it was a deck you were - a little more nervous about, shall we say. I didn't mean tentative in any sort of negative sense. It was more of a revolutionary enterprise, in a way.

It is increasingly hard to talk about decks, when their creators so often get upset when you try to say what you mean, even when you actually like the bloody decks ! Maybe I just won't, any more. You know I value the work you both do, and I still can't say things in a way that doesn't get to you. :(

I think the same would happen with books, movies, etc. if their creators were available to talk to. There's quite a lot I would like to say to quite a few movie directors...........

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:22 am
  PMQuoteReply
22nd Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
Talking about the deck is just fine by me - as you know I even find the negative comments very useful - and some of the "de-enabling" ones at AT make me giggle.

However, talking about me "hyping" the deck is not so fine. That's not a crit of the deck. As you can see from the dictionary, it's almost like accusing me of swindling. I find that sad rather than anything else. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have done to deserve that. And it just does not happen in the other design areas we work in.

It's not a matter of being "upset" (I'm not a child Gregory). It's a matter of respecting myself and our work enough to point out that "hype" is, indeed, an ugly word to use - and one which has absolutely nothing to do with the deck itself. If you are not looking for a reaction, why on earth use a word as strong and as accusatory as that? I just don't get it. There are heaps of alternative words - and you're surely educated enough to choose your words in full knowledge of their meaning.


Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:44 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:25 am
  PMQuoteReply
23rd Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote:
But I still felt (I was actually around but very quiet (I lurked !) during the BB's birth !) that it was a deck you were - a little more nervous about, shall we say. I didn't mean tentative in any sort of negative sense. It was more of a revolutionary enterprise, in a way.

No, that wasn't the case. When I'm available here it's surely easier to ask me what my feelings and motivations were than ascribe them to me. Hey, just ask!

Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:26 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:47 am
  PMQuoteReply
24th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
I specifically said hyped NOT by you.

And I do think it's valid to say what things felt like. No matter.

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:55 am
  PMQuoteReply
25th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
It's absolutely valid - of course - to say what your feelings were. It verges on the absurd to tell me what MINE were. There is no need for speculation, I'm here. As I say, just ask! ;)

Your first post actually implied that you saw the hype as mine. In the second post you withdrew from this - if I understood correctly. Which is great, but confusing. I mean, who exactly do you think WAS hyping the deck then?

If I felt our work was so weak that it needed hype I'd do something else. Life is just too short to spend time making crap and talking it up.


Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 11:55 am by BabaStudio

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:15 pm
  PMQuoteReply
26th Post
gregory
Administrator


Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3280
Status: 
Offline
Fans of anything and everything on AT hype decks all the time. It gets a bit like Hello magazine hyping Amy Blindhouse etc...........

Think of those ghastly threads (not by creators) soliciting votes for the polls.  :f

I am leaving this thread. You have my e-mail if you want to talk further :D !!!

Last edited on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:17 pm by gregory

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:34 pm
  PMQuoteReply
27th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: Fans of anything and everything on AT hype decks all the time. It gets a bit like Hello magazine hyping Amy Blindhouse etc...........

Think of those ghastly threads (not by creators) soliciting votes for the polls.  :f

I am leaving this thread. You have my e-mail if you want to talk further :D !!!

So it's fine for some people to express their opinions of deck, but not for others?:shock:
Like, anything positive is "hype" and anything negative is just people being honest? That makes no sense to me. Come one, come all, surely?

Hello Magazine? I really now am totally bewildered.  I've only ever read it at my dentist's. :f

As for the (Twilight Zone theme tune here) Poll....
I haven't seen threads soliciting votes this time around. Do they exist? I, and others probably (I don't read everything) certainly said that they'd rather the whole thing be treated more playfully. I mean, I think Solandia started this as entertainment rather than pitched battle.

I am also leaving this thread unless it involves actual facts about the deck. I have to design some bags. Which I rather hope will be the story of my life for the next couple of years.

Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:39 pm
  PMQuoteReply
28th Post
BabaStudio
Member


Joined: Fri Jan 18th, 2008
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 60
Status: 
Offline
Adam, we need a kind of a "Toodle Pip" icon. Anyway, for now, imagine a virtual one. My toodle is well and truly pipped.

Back To Top

 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 03:08 pm
  PMQuoteReply
29th Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
gregory wrote: When you say is considered - the only person who said that was ME. I did say "do you see what I mean." I do know what I mean - but I don't know how to say it.......... One of a kind is not the only criterion, though - or not for me, anyway. I suppose in one way - decks that are wildly popular and there is loads of - FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, KAREN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no undertones....) hype about, somehow - make me uncomfortable with seeing them as collectors' decks.....

Well, let's see - there are books in this world which are absolutely brilliant, but which aren't collectors' items either. The BBC is - I'd say - because it was brought out almost tentatively, and was very much the first of its kind - indeed, for all the other cat decks around, it is still in a genre of its own. The Prague even more so. There are other Gothic decks, though. This may or may not be the best - but it is still not unique in the way the BBC is.

BTW - I agree with what you (6) said elsewhere about the "physical" darkness of the cards - I do find I have to look at the book to see the details, and that I DO regret. It slows down reading with them, too.............




I read this when it was posted, but have been busy per usual with the weekend! I wanted to respond, I sure didn't mean to start any disagreement between anyone here!

 

Anyways, the whole collector's or not for the BG in your opinion is still confusing me. To you, you listed as to why it doesn't seem a collector's deck, but as it seemed you were speaking for the forum (as in why no one was responding to my post) it seemed your stating that your reasons are everyone else's. But the reasons given don't make much sense either!

You said there are many gothic decks, but very little cat decks. Huh?! There are plenty of cat decks, but really very little gothic decks. Really, how many are there? Vargo Gothic, Gothic Tarot of the Vampire (is that actually "gothic", to me it's a vampire deck), a couple majors only goth decks by Wendell....what else? I certainly don't count the Luciferian deck...that's about a spiritual path.....it's not gothic. Anyhow, then you said BBC was very unique and one of kind as far as cat decks go, and that was why it was collectible. By that very reasoning then, the BG is just as collectible in it's catagory. Nothing like it has ever been done before....and it's very different and unique as far as gothic decks go. And that's even without mentioning the Silver edition....that has never been done on a deck....ever.

As to the word "hype" you've used surrounding the BG, I took it that you meant the excitement, anticipation and general hoopla on the boards as it was being made, waiting for it and then finally getting it. I didn't take as having to do with Karen or her motivations. I guess you could call the excitement and joy the BG has caused and causes "hype".....it's just people responding to something they love and are passionate about is all. To me they are honest reactions. In your opinion then if a deck gets many very excited and stoked about it release and owning it....somehow that makes the deck "less than" or not as collectible as a deck that only has a few fans and is barely noticed? Why? As Karen said....if it gets lots of positive reaction it's hype but if it gets negative or a smaller response that's more an honest opinion? Very confusing.

As far as the BBC, there was tons of excitement, anticipation and pages and pages of gabbing about it gleefully. I've read all the threads on it, it sure didn't seem like a deck "under the radar" and getting little notice or acceptance. Same with the VR.....that deck was and is huge. The Fairytale and Fantastic Menagerie got the least chatting up and anticipation on the threads. The threads for that deck are a lot smaller, and they don't get mentioned much compared to the BG, VR and BBC. I say this, because as you state one of your criteria for something to be collectable it has to be a less mass appeal deck and doesn't have loads of people discussing, excited and using it, then the FM and Fairytale would be the most 2 collectible of MRP decks!

See why it's confusing to me? The logic doesn't make sense. To me.....a collectible deck is something that's very unique, one of a kind, the style or art has never been done before....something very fresh and vibrant on the tarot scene. By my criteria....the BG and Silver, the VR and Gold, The Fairytale, the BBC and Gold. the Fantastic Menagerie and Tarot of Prague (btw that's a collage deck, plenty of those about so why is ToP so unique and collectible, the packaging?) are all collectible decks! You used the word "tentative" in another post about the BBC and why it was collectible...not quite sure what you mean....do you mean....unsure or they weren't sure of the response it'd get?

What do you mean when you say the hype has coloured any serious discussion on the BG? People aren't talking about it seriously? One thing that kind of irritates me (and it took awhile to figuire what was bugging me) is that on the threads and discussion of the BG....people on the main talk about the cards as if they were storyboard generators. Like.....saying what they think the story is in each card. It's much less common to see someone actually discussing the image and how it conveys, impacts, broadens and imparts the meaning of that arcana it portrays. Another thing is most seem to think every person in a card has to be some sort of creature.....a vampire, monster, evil doer.....and that every card hassome sort of sinister connotation or thing going on. IMO people are just looking at it right now in way too narrow of a way. It's like they're stuck in this rut and have tunnel vision.

The Bohemian Gothic deserves so much more than that, it has complexities, layers and very subtle nuances. This isn't some novelty deck to me where I try to just make up creepy stories with each card......it's so much more to me. This is going to be a lifetime deck, to me it's a masterpiece of a fusion of dark imagery, the gothic literature, poetry and short stories I love so much and the Tarot, that I hold so dear and am so passionate about.

I'd love to see more discussion on the image and how it fits with the meanings and interpertations of the cards. Like how the Sun changes or reinforces the way you see it and interpet it. Not just a story about some creepy kid who looks like Chucky (please) and is out to get you.

Well this was long! I know you saif you weren't coming back to the thread, and wouldn't post in it anymore....but I hope you read this and respond....there's no reason not to talk about your feelings about a deck, reaction to it and thoughts on the events and discussions surrounding it. Either way, I wanted to say a few things so regardless, I had to write! 

Last edited on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 03:47 pm by 6 Haunted Days

Back To Top

 Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 10:15 pm
  PMQuoteReply
30th Post
debra
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 9th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 1115
Status: 
Offline
Observations don't have to be logically consistent to be true. Cultures are full of contradictions and inconsistencies!

I think what Gregory was getting at is related to the traditional distinction between "fine art" and pop culture.  Part of that distinction draws on social class differences and the sense that it's "too common" to advertise one's work extensively and to a wide audience.  The "finer things" are not for the masses, so it goes. This will probably seem more familiar to Europeans, and more unfair and irritating to Americans, but it's embedded in all our cultural histories and there's no getting around that.

For a "serious collector," perhaps part of the satisfaction comes NOT from owning everything, and especially not everything "mass market." Anyone can own all the mass market stuff, if they have enough money--that's "just collecting." The "serious" part of collecting comes in appreciating and finding items that are more obscure and by definition less "broadcasted." It's an irony in the arts--success can lead to a downgrading of value.  It may sound snotty and irrational, but it's part of the history of connaisseurship.

This is true in many other areas, not only tarot!  It's the "mass" in mass marketing and mass culture. 

The "specialness" of the deck in question, a deck publicized for a long time as being "not for everyone," made it a "must" for many people--and then, because of the "must have it! must have it!"  fever, it became not very special at all as an "owned object." "Playing to the fans" is a form of advertising.  Some people bought multiple copies of the silver version of the deck, a limited edition, anticipating that the value  will rise significantly.  "Speculating," so to speak--also not a "high class" behavior in the traditional art world. 

I'm not saying anything about the images themselves, a different matter altogether.

Tulips anyone? It's spring.


Back To Top

 Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 11:30 pm
  PMQuoteReply
31st Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
I do agree on many points, but as Gregory specifically mentioned 2 decks that she said in her opinion were very collectible were also ones with mass appeal, were both mass market and "must get it mentality" your viewpoint was obviously not what she was getting or trying to convey. I think it was something else all together. So as she very possibly does hold those views you expressed about collectible decks (I agree and hold those views too), she also thinks mass market, heavily advertised decks can be collector's decks as well. With certain exceptions and criteria (again like me).

Yes, it irked and irritated me really the way people just kind of herded like lemmings on the BG bandwagon. I was excited from the start as Gothic is my favourite literature, the art is my thing and I have that kind of general viewpoint. But then it seems almost everyone jumped on it and off it took. I think the majority of people aren't even going to use the deck or get it out much. They got it as the ball got rolling and hysteria followed. As I said before the vast majority who got this deck know next to know nothing of gothic literature, art, lifestyle or "mindset" and perhaps that's where I am seeing so many having such a fixed one time johnny take on the images. They just don't get it. Period. And that's fine, it's not their thing.

And I am sure it irritated the core base of people who actually identify and love this genre....non-weekend warrior type.

I certainly understand and know your points you mentioned.....the masses ruining something by making it common...etc. And I for sure know all about success downgrading value....I've seen one too many times in the circles I've ran in. Frankly the BG isn't mass appeal....never meant to be and won't be. The AT fever is just that....on AT...not the world. The drama and people getting it because of the hype will stop...and the small base of lovers of the deck will remain.  As far as it not being uber special because now everyone (well everyone on AT which is hardly the whole world) has it.....yea it annoys me, but nothing I can do about it. And I love the deck for very personal, intimate reasons so I don't care so much. It'd been great if it could have kept it's niche appeal though.

As far as people getting many copies of the Silver to sell when it's OOP, I know I didn't. I got it because of my love for it and a pack rat mentality! I am sure there are others who did just that, which is imo kinda silly. How much can one really make off of an extra copy? $50? Many did say that about others who got multiple copies of the VR Gold...weirdly it went OOP in October and I haven't seen one for sale yet!

 

This was long and rambeling...only not confusing :)

Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 11:32 pm by 6 Haunted Days

Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 09:03 am
  PMQuoteReply
32nd Post
Morwenna
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 14th, 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 99
Status: 
Offline
I have no idea about other parts of the world, but in Europe Goth in the Eighties was a mass movement, encompassing a pretty big share of the younger population.

So people who seem like weekend warriors to you may well have been part of this movement, which additionally is having quite a revival over here (much like the revivals mentioned in the BG companion book, so this isn't even new).

Looking into bookstores, there is a whole new genre of young adult "gothic" fiction, like all the teenage Vampire series (some of which are badly clichéd, but others do qualify as truly gothic and dark according to my definition), the modern Faerie books by Holly Black, etc. Many of the classic tomes are currently being reissued. Finnish bands playing dark rock and other alternative/indie bands are hugely successful right now. And when 10 years ago the only Halloween party in town used to be my own, everyone and their dog hosts one these days. And Subway to Sally won the National Song Contest (a very pop culture thing) only last week.

So, with a range of darker decks coming up (as mentioned in a thread on AT too), I personally think the BG is an extremely trendy deck, right now.

Which of course doesn't mean there will be no people using it after the revival has run its course. I also prefer to be a "true" member of a movement, and I'm prone to viewing newcomers as wannabes. Some of them are and some of them aren't. At 40, I know I'm going to be like this for decades to come, and so eventually I will find myself in a lovely elitist niche again - but for the moment, this niche is rather crowded in my corner of the woods.

As for the other discussion... ummmmm... for me every deck is a collectors' deck... how else would I have gotten to 1100??

Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 10:56 am
  PMQuoteReply
33rd Post
ilweran
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 18th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 22
Status: 
Offline
6 Haunted Days wrote: I think the majority of people aren't even going to use the deck or get it out much.

Just wanted to comment on this and your previous post about people discussing the stories in the cards rather than the card meanings.

Looking through the deck and reading the book over the Christmas holiday inspired me to start writing again. For me stories leap put of some the cards, and it's likely that I will mainly use this deck for writing and story-telling. Far from not 'getting it out much' I've not put it away yet! For me at the moment, that's the most important use it could have.

Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 02:56 pm
  PMQuoteReply
34th Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
Morwenna wrote: I have no idea about other parts of the world, but in Europe Goth in the Eighties was a mass movement, encompassing a pretty big share of the younger population.

So people who seem like weekend warriors to you may well have been part of this movement, which additionally is having quite a revival over here (much like the revivals mentioned in the BG companion book, so this isn't even new).

Looking into bookstores, there is a whole new genre of young adult "gothic" fiction, like all the teenage Vampire series (some of which are badly clichéd, but others do qualify as truly gothic and dark according to my definition), the modern Faerie books by Holly Black, etc. Many of the classic tomes are currently being reissued. Finnish bands playing dark rock and other alternative/indie bands are hugely successful right now. And when 10 years ago the only Halloween party in town used to be my own, everyone and their dog hosts one these days. And Subway to Sally won the National Song Contest (a very pop culture thing) only last week.

So, with a range of darker decks coming up (as mentioned in a thread on AT too), I personally think the BG is an extremely trendy deck, right now.

Which of course doesn't mean there will be no people using it after the revival has run its course. I also prefer to be a "true" member of a movement, and I'm prone to viewing newcomers as wannabes. Some of them are and some of them aren't. At 40, I know I'm going to be like this for decades to come, and so eventually I will find myself in a lovely elitist niche again - but for the moment, this niche is rather crowded in my corner of the woods.

As for the other discussion... ummmmm... for me every deck is a collectors' deck... how else would I have gotten to 1100??


Well duh, of course. I wasn't talking about the "goth" movement though or music, cheesy hot topic crap and bad Poopy Z. Brite books. I was talking Gothic. The BG isn't indicative of the above genre....Vargo Gothic is, so is Tarot of the Gothic Vampires.

Same as you I was a child of the 80's, all things Gothic have always been a passion. But the trendy goth is nothing new. Around the early 90's the clubs and scene started getting the BS trendy goths pouring in....it's been bad ever since, in fact if anything that "movement" had it's heydey awhile ago...it's not like the underground is suddenly being plundered, that happened over 10 years ago. And that pissed a lot of us old-timers off. For years now I have to explain how I'm not into bad vampire novels, Marilyn manson et al. and I don't shop at hot topic, it's really tiring. Especially when most have no clue.

I've heard many of the fans of those other goth decks complain heartily about the BG and how it's boring.....not enough boob jobs, cleavege, collogen lips and pretty bois with no shirts. Yea and PVC outfits and easy boots.

The BG is classic early literature Gothic using photo's of real people from the 19th century.....no pop culture goth in sight.

Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 03:02 pm
  PMQuoteReply
35th Post
6 Haunted Days
Member


Joined: Sun Dec 2nd, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 174
Status: 
Offline
ilweran wrote: 6 Haunted Days wrote: I think the majority of people aren't even going to use the deck or get it out much.

Just wanted to comment on this and your previous post about people discussing the stories in the cards rather than the card meanings.

Looking through the deck and reading the book over the Christmas holiday inspired me to start writing again. For me stories leap put of some the cards, and it's likely that I will mainly use this deck for writing and story-telling. Far from not 'getting it out much' I've not put it away yet! For me at the moment, that's the most important use it could have.

That's perfectly fine, whatever connection you have with it is great. I was talking about the majority of people just talking about the images as in stories. 1st and foremost this is a Tarot....not flash cards for creative writing, though some I am sure are being inspired to write with it, it'd be nice too see the images and deck discussed more as a Tarot deck....and not as "ooo everything has a dark negative interpertation to it"

Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 04:13 pm
  PMQuoteReply
36th Post
Morwenna
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 14th, 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 99
Status: 
Offline
A trend doesn't necessarily equal ignorant and tacky, though admittedly that often comes with it.

Not all revivals are pop culture, nor are old-timers always in the know (though of course we know we are :ok).

I'm also happy it didn't all end with The Vampyre, or we would never had Nosferatu.

As for the story-telling aspect... even the RWS always made me wonder "how did he end up there - where is this boat going" etc. Illustrated scenes always trigger a story in my head, which is why sometimes the stringent patterns of the Marseilles work better for me.

Back To Top


 Current time is 09:50 pm

Top



UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2011 Data 1 Systems